Shoemoney’s Affiliate Marketing Legacy | With Jeremy Schoemaker | RBM E14

Welcome to the Robust Marketer Today, I'm extremely lucky to have Jeremy ShoeMoney Shoemaker

There are several stratas of affiliate marketer I've been in this industry for about 10 years, and when I first came into it, already, the person occupying the top strata of that space was ShoeMoney Read his blog on the regular I don't know if you remember this, but it was you, me, and Samantha Brackett on my very first ever affiliate Summit West, and we were out for some drinks You're intimately tied with my marketer's hero's journey from back in the day, and since then, he's gone on to multiple other kinds of affiliate marketing success, from SEO to email

He's built companies, he's sold companies, he's built offices, he's downsized offices, he's come full-circle more times than most people have even started the circle Welcome to the Robust Marketer, Jeremy How you doing? I'm doing great, thanks for having me It's a pleasure Thanks for the intro, that was super nice of you

Speaking of Samantha, I just ran into her Did you? Mm-hmm (affirmative) In Canada, they give you like forever off work if you have a kid Of course So she got out of Never Blue and all that stuff, but anyways

She's back in the industry Global wide and she works for some other company Yeah, she works for Revenue Wire in Victoria now, I hear Yeah

It's funny, actually Doing with ISEC training now, we're building up ISEC's Victoria presence and we're just picking off old Never Blue alumni, and it's a lot of fun It's great We always start this podcast by talking about the Marketer's Hero's Journey What brought you to where you are today? I'm sure a lot of people are aware of your story, as it relates to the famous check, and some of the other things, but if you could just give me a quick synopsis of how you got where you are toy, I think it would be a good jumping off point for people who maybe aren't familiar, but I bet most are

Yeah No worries I always perfect this, or I should improve on this Basically I started 2000 It would have been a little bit before 9/11 I created a website that was in the mobile space, and it developed It was basically around ringtones You could upload whatever audio format you had or Mp3, and then tell what kind of phone you had

It would convert it and spit you back the right file It was all free, whatever It got to the point where it was getting like 100,000 plus users a day One day, I got a call from Google AdSense, and they said, "Hey, we've got this product called AdSense, and we have a lot of advertisers in the mobile space, and not a lot of mobile focused websites" She actually walked me through pacing the code, and then the result you see, is the famous check

Funny story about the check I never showed that to anyone, until like 2007 It was because somebody Leaped it I would share it with people online and stuff Some people I didn't know very well, and then someone posted it on

It was not even a well-known blog, and then everyone was like, "It's fake It's fake" Then Google actually was like, "No

That's actually " Then they did this case study on me I was on unemployment, by the way, when I got that check

I went to the bank with a $300 unemployment check and a $132,000 check from Google Then from there, I basically was using AdSense, but AdSense had restrictions on what advertisers can put in their ads I was like, "You know what'd be cool? Is I can see what these people are advertising on my site, and obviously it must be working well for them" which was like ringtone offers and mobile offer I was like, "Let me make my own ad system, and go directly use my affiliate link" I created this thing called ShoeMoney Ads, which then

I was playing Poker at, I don't know what time it was, at Binion's in Las Vegas, and just happened to be the eBay affiliate team there, and they were like, "Oh, somebody's using your ShoeMoney ads to drive leads to eBay You ever think about making an advertising network around eBay?" Me, being a developer, and I had another partner, well he was like a $20 an hour programmer, but he was always kind of integral in my company We basically just took the code from that, created Auction Ads, eBay gave us special access and high-price and moved along

I still had all the NextPimp stuff, which was the ringtone site, going and it was crushing affiliate offers It was printing money Wow Yeah, it was doing three to five thousand a day in profit, all day I implemented subscription revenue, obviously I had AdSense contextual revenue, my own affiliate revenue, I had really honed it in

I sold physical products, as well, which was totally out of my hands I left someone in charge of it, because it was pretty basic I marked up the physical products, like I would get cables from five cents from China, I would sell them for thirty dollars It was just printing money I had money to invest

This is back the days before Cloud stuff, so I spent, just my Coyote load balancers were like seventy five grand apiece, and then I had all this hardware, anyway So, Auction Ads created it, four months later, sold it for millions, and then from there, I built ShoeMoney Tools, subscription platform, which would basically let you do all this research on SEO and just a bunch of really cool tools Not only on that scale it just like we had a direct AdWords campaign builder that would actually upload right into your AdWords account Okay Then it would actually keep track and it would automatically withdraw ones that weren't working, and all this other stuff, before all this other software came out

Then I created, which I sold There's a lot of stuff in between, and then somebody came to me and was lie, "You should make an info product on how to make money online" I did that, I made money, but then I kinda to into the world promoting these other people's, and I did about a million in commissions in a year Then I got kind of in that world, where then it was like "Is ShoeMoney a scam Read this review" Not my most proudest moment, but

Yeah, it's a space that we're in now, too, the info product space I think there's a line that we're walking anyways, that we feel we need to walk in that, where the making money systems versus the skills-based training, you know what I mean? That's an interesting thing you found yourself in that space, and that you didn't love it You didn't love what your brand was kind of becoming in that space, is that accurate? Yeah, for sure

My girlfriend, her ex husband for instance, is like, "Yeah, your boyfriend's a scammer Just read this" People talked shit about me before this, I don't care, whatever It's gonna happen Yeah, when I had the blog

The blog was a good source of revenue, as well It still is It's like 10% of the readership that it had back then, because it was I would just talk smack about everyone Yeah Then I got to know them by going to conferences and stuff, and it evolved I started to build real businesses I had some bigger companies that I had like downtown

I mean, this is fast forwarding a lot, but in downtown Nebraska, here in Lincoln, I had like With the PAR program, my email platform, I had like 30 employees and we were managing email for some very, very large brands We had less than, I wanna say about 15 clients, and we were doing over 10 million a year in revenue Wow I sold that company to our biggest client, and then I hooked up pretty much everyone that was of value there, for good jobs Then got rid of my office, was like, "I'm done

I'll never have an employee again" So that's where I'm at Now I build still, software as a service applications, and still leverage what I learned from affiliate stuff, what I learned from other stuff, and it just gives me a leg up Yeah I listed to a podcast you did, I guess in 2015, and you were talking about this process of building this legit company with this big downtown office, and this huge overhead where you're burning, you say 15K a day, minimum, on staff and rent

Or that was 15K a month for rent, basically You're just having this big overhead business and you found yourself stressing out, found yourself not liking managing people What was that experience like for you? How long were you in that world where you were being something that you weren't, or were sort of forced to be into something that you weren't? Yeah, that's actually perfect I always thought I needed to be a CEO of a big company, and Build an empire! Yeah I don't know that there's been many people that evolved from affiliate to CEO Yeah Like Jason Akatiff, who owned

He's one that comes to mind Ads4Dough, who owned his own network, was an affiliate but then really for the network, he has become a great CEO and the stuff he's doing now is amazing, even outside the affiliate space I think I've been the exception a little bit, in that I've built several SaaS-based companies

Waking up and knowing you have to make $7,000 in a day just to break even, sucks Yeah In that company, I think part of being a lone wolf affiliate marketer for so long, you are used to doing everything yourself The most successful affiliates I knew, either were developers themselves and could do everything, like could graphics, development, copy, that was me Then you've got NickyCakes, and Charles Ngo

Charles is more like he can work with He's one that's actually built a really good business, even though he kind of teaches you how to make money with Facebook stuff, and stuff like that It's kind of still in the same space

For me, it was just I tried to be something I wasn't, and like I said, used to being a lone wolf, is that I had four programmers, but yet I wrote 75% of the code I had three sales people, but I did all the sales I don't know if they ever made one sale I had an administrative team, and an in-house accountant, that wasn't cheap, that was just keeping up on When you've to that many employees and you've got all this other stuff You've got your payroll Benefits, or whatever The 401K program, and freaking maternity policies

Imagine Canada I don't even, yeah Like they would come to me like, "Okay, here's the different things we can do with maternity" and I'm like, "Just fucking pick one" Yeah It's not like yes or no, it's just pick one

I don't care You guys realize that if I don't make money, none of this stuff matters It's the number of decisions This is something that the CEO and founder of Go To Moby, when I was working there, talked to me about He was just like, "Do you realize how many decisions I have to make in a day?" It is

It's decision about maternity policies, and all these decisions have to be made, whether you really want to make them or not, whether you even really care about them or not, and they end up defining your company As someone in that CEO position, especially with 30 reports, you're just having to make decisions all day, and less rolling your sleeves up and getting things done It sounds like you were caught in this still trying to do shit yourself, and still trying to grow this team It sounded like an unpleasant situation Yeah, it was bad

I should say not from a monetary perspective, because we had such big clients, but I didn't make Even though the gross revenue was huge, I didn't really make that much money from it But I didn't lose money, so okay, cool

Sounds like you haven't lost money in any of your ventures, which is always a good feather to have in your cap It sounds like most of the things you've done, one way or the other, have ended up being a success Is that accurate? Yeah There's some things that I gamble with, because I have money coming from other areas For instance, when I started the advertising network and I went with eBay's suggestion, and I started Auction Ads, when I sold it, it was probably 300 grand under, but it sold for millions, and plus they gave me all the money back for all the hardware, and all that

Nice My goal for that was user growth, it wasn't profitability, so I expected to lose a lot of money before I made money, because I knew once we had the publisher base and everyone was using it, then we could just flip a switch a little bit We were paying out people more than we were getting paid Yeah, just tweak the breakage style Right

Also, if you referred someone, you got a good percentage of what they made and stuff, and we were paying out 100% of what eBay gave us, so our goal was just to get so many people to where When I say tweak the dial, I mean like going to eBay, and saying, "We need more money" and even getting like 50 cents from them, when you're doing 3 million in revenue the last month I sold it, it's a big difference Then we would have been profitable

My whole mantra of things that have been very successful for me, has always been, "I really want something that doesn't exist" and then I build it, and offer it to other people, and then the money's just a side effect, always I wish I could tell people I had this grand scheme of selling companies or having them be super profitable and all this, but it's simple to me If people find something of value It's the same way I feel about SCO I used to wear shirts that said "SCO's bullshit" to SCO conferences I was just like, "Just build something people wanna link to" and then it will stand the test of time Just build something of value Don't get me wrong, I gamed the crap out of it back in the day, and I made a lot of money making the MFA's

Some of your people might not remember what we called the "Spam ne Sham" days, or MFA sites, Made For AdSense Okay, yeah yeah Yeah I've been a part of some huge arbitrage plays with working with celebrities Oh, really? That's been really interesting

Can you name drop? Yeah, for sure I did Akon's page So if you go to Akon's fan page, you'll see he'll drop news stories like twice a day, that go to a page called "Akon Connected" That's not his page, okay? Basically, you pay him a licensing fee, or not him, but someone there, a licensing fee of, it was six figures a month, and then what you do is, is basically from that site, you then run AdSense actually paid the best on his "news site", and you would just arbitrage that You would get like 600,000 to a million clicks He's got 52 millions fans, so between his own people and other people, you would see a ton of clicks Me and the people that did it, I wanted to take it to the next

There was so many forms of monetization they were missing out on Long story short, I was just like, "Meh" It's out there

The funny thing is, these celebrities will let you post It's so inexpensive to license these and there's so much That's actually one of the reasons why Facebook throttled the amount of content that links outside of Facebook Okay Because you can go to Almost any page that has more than like, shoot, there was like little Disney people that had like 600,000 fans that you could do for like 20 grand a month, and just by arbitraging and making a news post, and it was like "their site", but wasn't Slammed with ads, basically Yeah Just totally slammed with ads

Yeah The whole sliders of like "10 Things you didn't know about X" 10 Celebrities with Free Tits For sure, for sure I wanna know

Then it was just like, "Click the next one, click the next one" Well, those are page reloads, and those are more RPMs It honestly was like the Wild West, and then Facebook caught onto it Yeah It still is though, those sites are still

Now, most of them that are big, they're actually managed by a lot of So, a lot of the bigger ones, now management companies have reached out to them, to charge a CP whatever, basically it boils down to cost per thousand clicks Okay They have advertisers that will pay that, or people that arbitrage that will pay that But it's still fairly early days with influencer marketing, right? It's good that they're wising up to these performance metrics and actually charging for clicks I know you dabbled in influence market, I read the Techcrunch article actually, about you beating Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg in the fast company influencer contest

What's your stance on influencer marketing generally now? Talk a little bit about that contest that sort of showed the power of performance marketing Yeah, that part was easy Honestly, they wanted Britney Spears or Shaquille O'Neal or Bill Gates or Ashton Kutcher to win They didn't want affiliate marketer Jeremy Shoemaker to win For me, it was an easy sale

I emailed that to my list, and I said, "Hey, Fast Company's has this thing where if you sign up for this thing, then they will guarantee that they'll put you in the magazine It could be a small pixel, but your picture will be in the magazine" I was like, "Do you realize this is a huge thing for you, because you could say 'As seen in Fast Company Magazine'?" That was it Then when they signed up, it was like everyone under them and then everyone under them, and so I won Actually, like the top 10, I think, were pretty much all affiliate marketers

The funny thing is, a lot of them were under me It was an interesting thing, and there's that one guy Pace Lattin, who's a total dirt bag, who wrote the reporter and said that I was a big scammer, and all this stuff Then they reached out to me, and I answered and I said, "Look Look at this guy's thing He hasn't paid child support forever, he's got, someone can look it up, assault and battery to where he beat his wife" and I'm not 100% sure on that, so I know he's got some stuff

I was just like, "Are you seriously, seriously gonna take " He's just one of those affiliate marketers, and you used to it a lot, but you don't anymore, to where you would have affiliate marketers that had fallen from grace, per se Then they would just hate on anyone that was successful

Yeah Unfortunately, that happens, and I would meet these people, and they would actually kinda open up about it, and just be like, "I just got so frustrated, and I'm really sorry about what I said" and I was like, "Dude I get it" When you reach enough people, it's just the law of averages, that you're gonna reach people The only one time, and I made a video about this, one time somebody threatened my children Ooh

and I had that person tracked down and then I made a video about him It was just some guy who owned a tile shop, and just tried to do stuff and lost like two grand, because he was an idiot, and then blamed me for it

Just was one of those guys who let stuff fly Wow I don't know Yeah, I had a private investigator pay him a visit, and I just tracked him down That sounds like a good precedent to set in a way, right? There's internet jawing, and there's shit talking and stuff like that, but you get into the realm where you're talking about children

A, knowing you have children, B, threatening them That seems like a good precedent to set that you get a visit from a Private Investigator Yeah If you talk about my fucking kids Yeah, and I normally don't talk about my kids, but one of my kids was born with meningitis

Ooh, scary It was one of those where they gave her her last rights, and was like, "You got pretty much 8 hours before she'll die" and so I posted about that, and I was just like I'm not a religious person, but I was like, "Those that are, and you think it'll help, I could use it

" It was that post that the person said, "I hope your kids die of cancer" Oh, God Now, two days later, they came in, pulled all her tubes, and said, "We read the chart wrong" and that was it She's totally fine, and it took me like years honestly, to believe that she was totally fine I believe in punching people square in the nose if they come to you

You have to defend yourself, so if you just Google "ShoeMoney sues", there's been people that have used my check picture to sell their shitty products Okay I don't care if somebody wants to use it, and talk shit about me Okay But if you use it, and you say it's my product, and you do that

I can't talk about a couple of them, because the settlements, but there's a Google thing where if you search for it, you'll find I really wanted to take that one to the house, all the way legally, because it would have been an epic, epic precedent I think it would have been the Roe v

Wade of digital advertising Crazy Yeah The claims out there, it's public There was like five Techcrunch stories about it, it was in the Wall Street Journal

I could not believe it, when we came to a settlement with the parties involved, and And they said something libelous, essentially, or they No, this was a Google employee Oh, I did read about this! I did read about this

Mm-hmm (affirmative) Yeah, and she Yeah

They used your brand It's weird that someone from Google was using your brand Yeah, I can't talk too much or confirm or deny Okay The things are out there

Yeah No, we made a settlement that I'm very happy with, to the point of where I'm very happy with the amount Well, the way things came out, but I wish I would have found an attorney that would have worked with me on that, because it would have cost me millions to take that against Google Yeah I don't even know if that would have been enough

Really interesting Yeah, I've even gone after someone on eBay that was using my image and saying it was me I went after that guy, and I think I got like 2500 bucks out of him If you're gonna sell shit, and use my picture and say it's you, I'm coming for you I have every time, and I've had 14 cases

Wow That's bullshit I've worked very hard to get where I'm at, and if you're gonna lie and say it's that, and sell shitty products, then I'm coming for you Let it be known, Internet world Don't fuck with ShoeMoney

Well, it's like when people say I'm a bully, like, "Oh, this guy didn't have any money" whatever No, he made a choice If he broke the law, he's going to jail I just took it in a civil matter It doesn't matter if you do sketchy shit like that, then I'm not a bully

I'm coming for you You started this shit Yeah I get it Whatever

I'm not a bully I'm not whatever Just don't use my image or picture and say that it's my product Yeah No, I get it

If you wanna reach out, if you wanna send me a copy of it and have me do a testimonial, I've done that for so many people, so much stuff That's fine To jump topics a little bit here It feels like you've undergone a massive transformation over the past year, basically You've had a massive physical transformation

How much weight did you lose? About 40 pounds 40 pounds In a very short amount of time, I lost most of it Part of that was initially filing for divorce, and the way you kind of lose your appetite There was that, and then there was like three days I didn't eat a thing

Jesus There's two ways you can go, right? With that, you can either get fat and feel sorry for yourself, or you can just get like, I don't know, F it Yeah I don't know how much you can swear on here Full swear I was just like, "Fuck it Get your fucking ass together, and get after it" I need to put on muscle, because I've just gone way too much into cardio training, and stuff like that, where I've lost so much weight

I do 100 pushups every day Nice! I do 100 sit ups every day I haven't gone to a gym gym, and lifted I did that like 10 years ago, and I got pretty big, but I didn't eat right and I wasn't in shape I will go on things where I don't eat right, but I burn enough calories doing other stuff

One of the things that I was really curious about, was specifically around your divorce You've been pretty public about it You've talked about, you talk about it on Facebook a little bit I was listening to this last podcast, you were talking about the forbidden list I'm married, I have this sort of forbidden list, as well

I'm wondering what it's like with someone with your resources at this point, when you don't have a forbidden list at this point If you're sort of out of the marriage Do you have an immense sense of freedom? Is the grass greener like you may thought it was? What's your mindset about that right now? It's two things, really Me and my ex wife had always had this thing where I was the cowboy and she was the rock The cowboy would have successes that would build over time, and the rock would

I paid for her medical school, all of her other stuff, I paid for our house with cash, like everything I doubled the size of our house when I sold one company I'm actually kind of frugal in a bit, with cash, which when you give up a lot of that in a divorce, kind of blows ass

As far as the freedom goes I was super devastated at first Okay

And you have kids, which is a huge deal I have to say, our kids were better than we were Amazing I did a lot of research on how not to fuck up your kids through a divorce, and especially at the ages they are, they're kind of like a sponge Which age? Approximately

They're nine and 11 Nine and 11, okay I did all this research on how not to fuck up your kids, and one of the biggest things was to get them their own therapist One that specializes in this The problem is, is there's very few of them and they're booked up a lot, but I got into one of them

She's the best, and it was all the difference in the world She said to me, "I don't care if it's the shittiest divorce ever, I don't care if it's the best divorce ever I've worked with kids, it'll be fine I'm not gonna ever tell you anything that they disclose to me, because I have to earn their trust" She's like, "But from a high level, I'll give you guys advice on stuff

" She was amazing at that, but as far as the initial part of the divorce, I didn't use a computer I deleted Facebook, I deleted Gmail for like two months I was completely devastated Oh, that's terrible Oh, it was bad! The night that we decided to separate and do all this stuff, I got into her iCloud and I saw messages that

I mean, this was all posted on Facebook, this is all public stuff I posted the entire story, because she started telling stories to people, and I was like, "Okay Let's tell the whole story

" I saw some stuff that basically drove me to a dark place, and I don't even remember what happened, but I know I fractured my right leg I had a hairline fracture My knuckles were completely fucked, and I ended up in the nuthouse for two days, which was very interesting Yeah Really, that kind of mentally stripped me down, and was I have to say, one of the best things that ever happened to me, was being in the nuthouse with people who are actually trying to commit suicide, and talking with these

At first I got there, and I'm like, "Oh, my God, these people are gonna drive me crazy" Because they give you like five minutes You get to write down three contacts, which you get 15 minutes a day to talk on the phone, and then they give you a plastic spoon and a bible, and that's it

They take all your clothes It was a good time Talk about being stripped to your core elements That's gotta be a crazy experience to rebound from and rebuild from Yeah, so i got out

I was still really dedicated to saving the marriage, and so I sold every computer in the house Everything I was just like, "What do you want me to do?" Then I was just like, I started to realize, "Fuck this" I filed for divorce, and for a while, I was like, "Man Did I do the right thing? Blah blah blah" and I was a freaking

It's a mind fuck, for me It was just like, "I got two kids Who's gonna want me?" Well I found out, I did okay

Yeah What's life like now? Do you feel more fulfilled at this point? Do you feel like it's been for the better, or is it still in the phase? Yeah! You have to remember, when I met my ex-wife, I was 450 pounds, she was the first girlfriend I had in my entire life I was a virgin when I met her at 27, okay? She was the only person I had known, and looking back on that, I'll forever be grateful for I'd be dead if it wasn't for her, because she had just, I don't know where she was at in medical school at that time, but knew a bariatric surgeon that did a procedure that they don't even do anymore, because the mortality rate is very high, but it works It's like a Lap Band type thing Is that what you're talking about? No

Well, now they do gastric bypasses and Lap Bands, but if you look at the statistics, people regain their weight in no time Do they? I had a duodenal switch, which has a much higher rate of success, but a decent amount of people die during it I was on oxygen and a C-PAP machine every night to sleep Wow I had bad Diabetes to where it was spilling into my urine

I had protein spilling into my urine I know that's just gross, but that's how bad it was I go through this, get married, go through all this stuff Actually, in our divorce settlement, there's a clause where I can't talk negatively about her, so it's only me that would get that There's actually a complete section in my divorce decree that deals with social media and how I can't say anything on social media

Oh, God Maybe for the best You have to have a relationship with this person forever still, right? They're the mother of your kid You talk to her once a week, still, or more? Right, but she knows how transparent I am about things, and all you have to do is look at my book My book is extremely transparent about a lot of things, people are like, "I cannot believe that, dude

I can't believe you said that" Like I said, rebuild I was abused as a child I never dealt with that It had given me a lot of negative self beliefs

Just a lot of stuff I saw a trauma therapist that dealt with that, and it was like, over time, just helped me realize stuff, and she kind of put a lot of, not thoughts, but questions, of more like, "Were you ever actually in love, like, love love, with your ex? Or was it just because she was the first girl and she showed you this, and then you " her words, not mine! "

Let you walk all over you, and blah blah blah" Like I said, I didn't have a computer, nothing I had to figure out me I have a ShoeMoney ring that it's gold and it's got my logo and all this cool stuff

I haven't worn it since the divorce, okay? Actually, I haven't worn it since the nuthouse, okay? Okay I probably shouldn't call it the nuthouse, but it's because I realized in there, I kind of had this epiphany of, "What have I become?" I've become ShoeMoney, and not Jeremy Shoemaker I've lost myself a little it in the process of all this So I was like, I didn't need a constant reminder of how awesome I was I used to have around me, in my office, all these articles and things that were

Actually, I do still have the Fast Company thing Oh, okay I do still have that on my wall

Nice I used to have like this shrine to me, and it was just like, I don't know if it was bad or whatever, but I just was like, "Okay You need to get back where you started, and made the most money" Just like I don't need a constant reminder of what I've done I need a constant reminder of where I'm at, and right now, I'm building a company

It's doing good, it's cash flowing, and it's not making a ton of money, but I'm a long term player in it It's just a lot to it So, the freedom aspect of it is amazing, because I dated for a while Had a lot of fun Then I met a girl who was actually everything that I wanted

Who I could be completely open and honest with about everything You can find the one that you want and I have no interest in getting married, and she's well aware of that, but I love her, she's great It's really good, because you can actually take your time After I'd gone on dates and realized they would be girls interested, I went on a bit of a spree, you could say I imagine

Yeah I still didn't own a computer Okay No computers So this was not Tinder

No email A little Tinder Some on my phone Okay, okay Tinder didn't work for me

I don't think it works for people in their I mean, I was 42, 43 now Especially in Lincoln, Nebraska

If I lived in LA, maybe Yeah To find some chick to go hook up with I went on a bit of a spree, safely Did you get your nipples pierced? I saw that post

Inquiring minds from STM wanna know if you got your nipples pierced I didn't I had them pierced when I was like 24 Oh really? It was actually, I loved it I was talking to my girlfriend, and she's amazing and open-minded, and just smart as shit

Yeah She's an executive assistant to a Fortune 500 company CEO Cool She's so fucking organized, and really compliments me so well She already helps me before, to where with my ex, she's an anesthesiologist, so her work schedule's insane

For anyone to let go of that and come home and not be like, "Hey, stat" because that's what she does all day It's just so much different to have someone so laid back and you can talk about your company with, and they have input I gave her a PowerPoint and she made it look amazing I was like, "What?" Which, I'd always have to contract out, because I was horrible at PowerPoints It was just like, I don't know, we just compliment each other so well

That's awesome Yeah I would say it's tough because I see Me and my ex are very amicable There was a time when you go through the first four or five months, when you start to divide up financials, lawyers, and all this, to where it was not good, but for our kids, even during the worst times, we were always amicable about the kids Now, would we wanna see each other? No Now, it's totally fine My kid had a volleyball game the other day

Me and my girlfriend show up, her and her boyfriend are there, we're totally fine, I shake his hand, she greets my girlfriend She really has always told me she really likes my girlfriend My kids love her Oh, that's good Yeah

I'm not gonna lie, it's extremely difficult to see another guy around your little girls Let's just say it's Yes

I don't know I'll ever be comfortable with that, but I'll never be comfortable with that As far as the freedom goes, and the change of life, and just somebody who knows nothing about this industry I took her to Affiliate Summit East, and the people that wanna take pictures with me and all this other stuff, it was an experience for her We got to meet Ludacris and do all that cool stuff I told her, I'm like, "Watch

I can leave my wallet in my room, because everyone buys me drinks Everyone pays for this Everyone just wants to take me to dinner, all this stuff It was kind of funny, but it's true I don't think I spent a dollar there

I actually did buy a bottle, which was a mistake because it was at a really crappy event, so I blew like 600 bucks on a bottle of something I think we drank like a quarter of it, and then gave it to the table next to us and bailed Whatever That was an experience As far as your question, the freedom and the not being tied down and like I said, I love this chick

She lives a bit away, she lives like about an hour away, but like tonight She's got two kids, too, so it's tough sometimes I struggled a bit with the long term aspect of it, of like, "Okay, you can't move here

I can't move there Fuck! What are we doing?" Almost broke up, and it was totally me, and I was like, "Wait What am I doing?" I really realized, I love this chick, and I actually felt feelings more than I actually ever felt for my ex wife It's just been really enlightening, I should say The freedom part of it is awesome

I can drink a beer at night if i want, and that's something that was not allowed before Oh, okay There's a lot of things, and physicians have, and I'm not talking about her right, and I'm not breaking any things, but they have God complexes, especially when they're the ones that are actually playing God and pulling the plug when people say, "Yeah, pull the plug time" They're the ones that administer the drugs that do kill people You're a little bit different, right? Yeah

You can be a little bit cold as to some things Like I said, once you're comfortable with yourself and your own independence of like, "I could be alone first time in my life, and that's okay", where at first for the first four months or so, I was terrified of that I really was like, "Oh my god, I don't wanna be alone for the rest of my life, blah blah blah blah" Stuck in my own head kind of thing Yeah, I know what you mean

Yeah, for sure It was just once you kind of validate that there's, like I said, there are women It was tough to say, "Hey, I'm not really looking for anything long term" When you see all that available, and that sounds like a total dick, but it is what it is I think it's for women, too, and guys, whatever

I think everyone knows what I'm talking about that's been through that, I think Then it's like, "Okay, you know what? I'm okay I can be independent and I'm totally fine" Also, we had nannies at our I hadn't done dishes or laundry in 15 years, or paid a bill Yeah Actually, this is gonna sound so silly, but just learning how to live on my own, with just dry cleaning and fucking stamps It sounds so silly, but I'm like, "What the fuck? Stamps are so expensive

" Like not really expensive, but I'm like, "Are you kidding me?" This is hilarious, but just paying my electric bill I was like, "Oh, fuck" Now I'm off her insurance, and now it's like it's a bitch to get insurance Like a bitch to get insurance! Especially as you get older, right? I'm sure as you get older, it just gets harder and harder Well, because I had coverage and I'm in great physical condition

I have no nothing I don't know smoke, I'm addicted to nicotine gum, but other than that I went to the healthcaregov, and there was like one available that nobody takes, so I was like, "Okay Thanks, Obama

" It's like I don't even know what to do now, because Blue Cross Blue Shield doesn't offer individual plans, Aetna doesn't offer individual plans, and they're the two that are accepted everywhere I don't know I almost feel like I'm gonna self-insure, and get a catastrophic plan, which is like anything over 100,000 But just having to think about all of this again You're starting to get so interesting, because everyone in the affiliate game that I've met, they're a lot about personal growth, and personal growth being a really important thing

I think that's the new paradigm, I think, for people in general Our parents and our grandparents, they had their kids, they had their grandkids, and they shuffled The paradigm wasn't as much about personal growth, and for you to have had this big trajectory in your career where you tried on being a CEO because you thought for a while, "Okay, that's what I should do

That's what I should want" The marriage, even though, I don't know this for sure, but maybe it didn't feel right for a while, maybe you knew deep down that it didn't feel right for a long time, but you kind of went through the motions Then to have yourself stripped down to literally the nuthouse and then now to be piecing things back piece by piece, in probably a more conscious way at this point in your life, you're probably a lot more careful and conscious about what you add to your life at this point It's interesting and inspiring Yeah, it's crazy

It's funny because I'm the poorest rich person you'll ever meet I've got obviously millions between brokerage and 401K, and actually in my checking, I've got over half a million dollars In my checking account, and my banker's like, "You realize we only protect so much" and I'm like, "Yeah, but if you go under, then we've got worse problems" Yes! I mean, I actually set a budget Like I said, I'm the poorest rich person you've ever met

Most rich people are Most rich people are very conscious of how they spend their money, right? It's not about the money you make, it's about the money you keep, as some wise people have told me Right It's like the problem is, is not losing it I wanna pull completely out of the market

Because you're pessimistic, because you think this is the calm before the storm as a man once said in the new recently? You think we're headed to some crazy times? I don't understand it I don't like to put my money into other people's hands and say, "Hey" I don't like it I feel as weird as it sounds, like I would rather buy bullets and gold Me and one of my friends who's male, he's made a lot more money than me on the Internet, we always joke because he's like, "Bullets and gold, bullets and gold

" Those are things that will always have value, and it's not really an investment to make money with, it's more that you'll have something of value, no matter what happens Yeah Do I feel a market's gonna crash? I don't know No one knows I would feel the same way if it was wherever it was at

I feel insecure about having all this cash in Now, there was some things I realized, like there was one account that I put like $8,000 in, that now has over 90 There's some things I'm like, "Oh

" I think if I really were to study it and understand it, I would feel good about it, but I don't know anything All I know, is I'm putting money into a guy's hands And paying him to know in a way, right? Yeah

The one thing is, I found a guy who's really good, and I'm probably actually one of the lower net worth people in his thing, but he loves me because I'm Well, he likes my story and shit like that, too I've made him show me his portfolio

What are you doing, and what are you gonna do when it crashes? I wanna do exactly what you do Like I said, I just don't feel safe in the market I honestly would rather, in Lincoln they've got municipal bonds that pay 4%, I almost feel like kicked back by the government And you're investing in your neighborhood, your community as well, in that sense, too, so it's probably pretty good Do you fuck with Crypto at all? Never

That's another one that in order to invest in it, you'd wanna fully understand it, and who fully understands Crypto at this point? Right The interesting this is, I mined big coins for fun back in the day, and I don't think people understand big coins and how there's a limit to them I think we hit the hard limit No, not yet Or not

No, we haven't hit the limit yet, but they hit 5,000 today They hit $5,000 Okay Wow Yeah

Yeah, I sold them for 90 bucks Yeah I thought that was doing very well It's one of those things, that it's good to go until it doesn't Until the banks decide, "Okay, here's the new Crypto currency with all the back doors that it needs or whatever

" Right Then it could be zero It's such an interesting market I'm dabbling a little bit in it, with a few people that I really trust I'm doing the same thing

I can't keep up with it enough to be confident in what I'm investing in, necessarily, but there are some people that are so immersed in it, I'm taking some advice from them That's pretty interesting See, I would much rather invest in startups Yeah I would be, I don't wanna say a big reason, but I do, to have really amazing products

There's so many really amazing products that never see the light of day, because the founders are bagging groceries, and they're good programmers and stuff I'm going to lunch with a kid tomorrow, and some you see, like there's one right now that I love, but the kid wants like 250 grand, and he wants to get an office, and he's already outlined he needs these chairs, and this and this I'm like, "You're fucking insane I'll give you 10 grand, and you get to this point, and then I'll give you more money There's no way I'm giving you a bunch of cash

I mean, I'll put it in a trust or something like that, that shows I'm in, but you need to hit benchmarks" I don't know Yeah, in Lincoln, Nebraska, there's a lot of tax advantages to angel investing If you just Google like Nebraska Angel Tax Credit, you'll see you get 40% back on your money from the state Wow

If you invest a million bucks, you get 400,000 back, and that 400,000 is tax free, so really, what do you have a risk at the end of the day? It's 40% off to make an investment I think the minimum is like 60 grand or something like that, so you invest 60, you get 40% of that back, and how much do you really have at risk? Especially when it's a company that you see, if I mailed my list this product, I would get that back in two months If I had sizeable equity, which I would have to I'd almost have to be like the prophet Actually, I don't know if you know, we did that Below Deck show with

Yeah! me and John Chow and stuff Yeah, that's interest I've actually had a couple conversations with 51 Minds, which is a company that you deal with I've talked to them about a reality show where I take my team and we go into a company and it's called "Double or Nothing", and it's basically like we double their revenue within 90 days, or it costs them nothing to do it But if we do, then we get 20% equity in their company

That was just the original pitch to them, and they loved it That's a cool idea! They really like it a lot I don't know if I would actually do it You would do Big Brother though, right? I already put in my application for next year Like four times, this is your fifth or sixth time you've applied

Why aren't you on it? Oh, I've put in since Big Brother 11, so this'll be my ninth year trying Yeah, I don't know I got to know some casting people after the Bravo thing, and they've asked me and John Chow to come back several times, because we doubled their ratings when we were on it That's huge! The episodes we were on, we doubled The original one, we pulled almost 2 million viewers, which was way more than the Vice Presidential debate that night, which was on NBC

It was like third of all of television that night The Bravo people are like, "Yeah, people are loving the storyline" and I'm just like, "Mm Uh-huh" We emailed 5,000,000 people, of course we're gonna get more They love the idea of the show

When I was in New York City for Affiliate Summit East, I met with some of the executives and they wanted to know more details, and how I saw, and I said, "I don't really That was just my initial" and they were like, " the prophet, and all this stuff" A lot of people don't understand how reality TV works, but basically a company like 51 Minds or others, like Survivor or anything, they actually will do the show, and then they'll sell it to a network Okay Okay, so that's why you see Mark Burnett things like all over the place, right? Because he'll do a show and film a season of it, and then they'll shop it to networks and that's how it works

So, 51 Minds is the company that did like Below Deck, and then somebody did the Kardashians, and somebody did this, and then they sold it to the buyer That's how that works Very interesting For instance, just because they're tied to Bravo on this show, does not mean that if we did this Double or Nothing thing, they would probably go to like CNBC or something like that, who've had success with shows similar Anyway, it's just that world, but then it also introduced me to like casting, and because 51 Minds is Canadian, they introed me to one of the high-level casting people for Big Brother Canada, and they kinda told me about how it works and they were like, "Here's how it is

CBS gives us the roles they want filled They want this many black people, this many this thing, this thing, this thing, hot chicks, this kind of role They want a transgender person, they can get one They want this, and they want this, and they're like, 'We only have about three positions to be filled' Unless they're looking for like a 40 some year old Internet marketer, self-made millionaire, they're probably

" And I'm like, "But " That's a good character! I'd watch that I told them, I'm like, "Look Here's the deal, is that I've got like what I do for a living is convince people to buy stuff that they wouldn't normally That's the definition of marketing" And I'm like, "For me in the house, I would get all these people to do

How not is that an egotistical pitch to get on the show?" You'd be like the Lex Luther mastermind, and I I know We're running out of time here I did wanna ask you what your general strategy would be for Big Brother, because I know you've been plotting it out for many years now I guess it would be dependent on the exact cast that you'd pull at that given time Yeah, you just have to come off like really honestly, like this is gonna be no thing

I do this for a living, these people are in for it, blah blah blah Then kind of you're a divorced father of two, blah blah blah You've got the green light to have showman You just have to really kind of play it up a lot Nice

Well, I wish you the best in that I would like to see you on Big Brother one day Jordan Rosenberg asked me to say, "When are you gonna come to Affiliate World? When are you gonna come to Affiliate World Asia? Is Bangkok too far to fly?" I've never been overseas Oh, okay There's little things, like Mexico and other things

Obviously, the British Virgin Islands, so I can say I've been to Europe, maybe now? No, I just never have It's not too far to go I totally would, it's just a matter of logistics and especially with my kids and figuring that out Totally It's just a matter of that kind of stuff

Especially now with my new company, we're in such of a stage of my developers, like right before this I asked you, is this video because I'll put a shirt on? That's because I just woke up about two hours ago, and that's because my developers are in Romania and Latvia, so for them, I work from like 4am my time, until 10am, and then most days, when I don't have my kids, then I'll sleep Well, even when I have my kids, I run them to school or around and stuff, but then during the school day, sometimes I'll get in a nap There's not always days that I work with my developers, but yeah My days, they're interesting and with this new application, it's all about testing and growth and people sign up, and they're like Spamchecka, right, for the audience to check it out? Spamchecka Yeah So, no R, just Spamchecka Right now, it's a lot of small things

We haven't been doing it for that long, so it's a matter of things like, "Oh, yeah, I should " People will bitch about stuff, and I'll just give them a free account, and I'm like, "Hey, that's a good point Here's a free account

" Then I'll be like, "God, I didn't think of that" There's just a lot with interface and tools, and you find out what people care about, what they don't care about, how to position it, and then you take your old strategies of funnels and this kind of stuff Doing an application like this, I don't need to raise money Even though I've thought about raising money from strategic people who would be like let's say, I don't wanna throw out any of the people that want to do it, but let's say like Frank Kern Yeah

[crosstalk 01:07:08] Frank Kern Actually, Neil's one of the I kind of assumed that Frank Kern The people who would be strategic, in that I would give them a much better evaluation because of their following and what they can do, and what they can help with There's other people There would be strategic people, who I wouldn't ask for much money, because I'm talking like not a very large amount

I'm in this for the long game, so it's cash flowing, which is great, but I would rather it grow than I don't care about making money as long as the growth is there Okay

Because the more the growth is there, then the more you know it's gonna work Mm-hmm (affirmative) And you can tweak the dials when you get the momentum, right? When you have the full momentum, it's the profitability can come Yeah, and I have so many people that wanna promote it, and I'm just like, "You know what? Lemme get my conversion better, lemme get this stuff better" Then I buy traffic to it from Facebook

It's kind of a loss leader right now, but you have to have traffic You need to have the same source of traffic I don't spend a lot, like 500 bucks a day I guess that probably is a lot to a lot of people It's a fair amount, yeah

Sometimes clicks cost you two bucks, so it's 250 people that didn't really help a lot, but over time, you get your conversion down, you figure out how much of your funnels is making a difference, versus just like, right now, you give me your name and email when you go there, and then you see the price There's price nowhere else on the thing, it's like "Start My Trial" It's important to capture an email, so then you can funnel them in, and get them to sign up But, what I'm finding now and testing, is just sending people to the checkout page is working better That's really interesting

We'll probably throw an exit intent, so that we can do semi the same thing Nice I'm probably gonna rebrand, so people that watch this later, it's gonna be I'm thinking email-wise, because I bought the dotcom and I like it, because it's like smart email stuff The thing is, we've grown so much more than spam Originally, it was just like, "Did your email go to spam? Okay, yes it did

Now why did it?" And then we dissect it until we can tell you exactly what's causing it to go to email, and we also do it from your provider If you're using AWeber, we use our AWeber account to keep sending until it goes through There's no false positives, and that's something that, I mean there's very few people that do anything, but the ones that do, they send it from their server, whatever, that's whatever Then we got way more into the insides of, let's say you're sending out an email to make sales, and it's going into updates or social or whatever, but you want it to go to this tab Well, we do the same thing we do with testing for spam

You wanna do it for promotions, or we'll keep doing it until it's like, "Okay, this is what's causing it to go to Social, which is the graveyard" That's super interesting We should talk about this at some other point, but what does a blast to the ShoeMoney list look like? How is your list these days, and are you still doing active JV promotion to it? It depends on the JV person Unless I've met the person in person, I'm hesitant to do stuff I have to be careful with what I promote, because I always tell people, "Look, if you have problems giving a refund, I will refund you

" There's been like one or two that I've had to do that with, but if it's a Kern or something with a really good quality product and that I've never had anyone have a problem with refunds with, no problem I would suggest people go to John Chow, because he'll promote the opening of a Dairy Queen Nice Okay Well, we should talk because we have met in person, as you may recall, in Las Vegas, and we have a Facebook master class

On that note, we've gone a little bit over here, but thank you so much of this chat today No problem It was super candid, super interesting People wanna check you out First off, check out Spamchecka

com soon to be maybe Emailwise Yep If they wanna follow your blog, which is Shoemoneycom Yep

Anything else? If you can, just follow him on Facebook you're a laugh riot Facebook is the best! You're pretty loose with your commentary there, I enjoy it It's Facebookcom/anesthesiologist, sorry Just one last dig

Did you keep the car? I need to know, also, what happened to the Vette? I sold it I sold it You had to sell the Vette Sold it on eBay? Yeah, and the guy that bought it is actually he's like nitpicking shit He's like, "It shakes when you go over 60" and I'm like, "Dude, I haven't driven over 60 for three months Can you go have the alignment checked?" It's not my problem anymore

Yeah I wanna make sure things are right with him, but at the same time it's like, "Dude Don't nitpick" Whatever Okay

Alright, man Well thanks! Thanks, Jeremy Talk to you later! Alright Later Bye

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